I occasionally added *** sector titles ***. Comments are in [[ square brackets ]]. Log time is on unknown timezone (the one of GyrosGeier). ============================ The ugly face of Open Source ============================ Tue Apr 26 19:14:42 CEST 2005 *** Freedom incubators *** 17:34 < strk> is there a directory listing tecnhology incubators' software (like sourceforge and savannah) ? 17:35 < Dabian> incubators? 17:36 < strk> systems allowing people to share tecnhological ideas and development 17:36 < strk> (sourceforge and savannah don't look adeguate for ideas, altought on savannah some projects are not technological at all) 17:38 < strk> I see "sourceforge" is NOT a free software (can't find it, can you?) 17:38 < strk> this tells me more about the reason for savannah 17:39 < strk> oh.. I see.. 17:39 < strk> The GForge project is a continuation of the SourceForge project, which was close-sourced by VA Linux in 2001. GForge has had a major rewriting, and is much better. It's even self-hosting, and not hosted on Savannah anymore. 17:41 < Dabian> Source forge used to be free software, now its proprietary. 17:42 < Dabian> I wonder how they got all the contributers to agree to that though. *** Codehaus: Albeit Macht Frei *** 18:07 < strk> it's terrific! 18:07 < strk> http://codehaus.org/FAQ - read definition of "business friendly" 18:07 < strk> it's actually "THEIR BUSINESS-friendly" ! 18:08 < strk> the sourceforge business model, I suppose ... 18:14 < Dabian> right 18:14 < Dabian> They suggest its a problem with the GPL 18:14 < Dabian> I guess they might be right, but still they have not come up with a sollution. 18:15 < Dabian> Then again .. why don't they just claim that the output is covered by the GPL also? 18:46 < antrik> there is an updated version of GPL v2 with the new address AFAIK; otherwise, there are no variants 18:59 < strk> Dabian, this is not the point 19:00 < strk> Dabian, the codehaus people are clearly acting as a company selling good quality software practically using work of a community 19:00 < strk> they are pushing this exact practice 19:00 < strk> if you read the manifesto they try to involve you in develompent (like sourceforge does) 19:00 < strk> but more explicitly then sourceforge they *require* your code to be their-busineess-friendly 19:01 < strk> read carefully the double-licensing question in FAQ 19:01 < strk> the will NOT accept GPL/proprietary double licensed code 19:01 < strk> as that would NOT be 'business-friendly' 19:01 < Dabian> Which site is that? 19:01 < strk> http://codehaus.org/FAQ 19:01 < Dabian> Oh .. codehaus 19:01 < Dabian> Heh .. nobody would that be that stupid, right? 19:02 < strk> in fact GPL/proprietary IS friend of business of someone else's business 19:02 < strk> (the copyright owner) 19:02 < Dabian> MySQL 19:02 < Dabian> For instance. 19:02 < strk> read the note here 19:02 < strk> http://codehaus.org/How+to+support+the+Codehaus 19:02 < Dabian> Though .. at work, we use MySQL a lot, and we never paid them a penny. 19:02 < strk> The Codehaus is not a non-profit. 19:03 < Dabian> Well .. neither is mysql. 19:03 < Dabian> afaik 19:03 < strk> Dabian, I'm not saying !GPL licenses are bad 19:03 < strk> but in this case they are saying GPL is bad 19:03 < Dabian> MySQL use GPL. 19:03 < strk> as they can't take part in the proprietary business 19:03 < strk> they cannot take a GPL code and sell a proprietary software using it 19:04 < Dabian> Right 19:04 < strk> so they *require* you to NOT use GPL 19:04 < strk> are you payed for your work ? 19:04 < Dabian> But they can sell free software. 19:04 < strk> I tell you: NO! 19:04 < Dabian> Indeed 19:04 < strk> are them ? 19:04 < strk> YES! 19:04 < strk> a Big Company rather then contract with XY software house 19:04 < Dabian> I work for a smaller company. 19:04 < strk> contracts with "codehaus" because they know how to make human resources cheap 19:04 < strk> *very* cheap 19:04 < strk> 0 cost 19:05 < strk> so all they pay to "codehaus" business is kept by "codehaus" 19:05 < Dabian> That was never the intension of free software. *** OSDN defection *** 19:05 < strk> the FSF should warn about this, which has roots in the OSDN 19:05 < strk> note the assonance: OSDN / MSDN 19:05 < Dabian> This might be the intention of the so called open source movement. 19:05 < Dabian> I've been afraid of OSDN for some time now. 19:06 < Dabian> Whats MSDN? 19:06 < strk> right. I know this, I wanted to share with someone (probably best writing on a webpage that here - are you logging this ?) 19:06 < Dabian> They bought /. and a lot of other stuff .. fresh meat. 19:06 < Dabian> No .. I don't log usually. 19:06 < strk> MicroSoft Development Network / Open Source Development Network 19:06 < Dabian> No? 19:06 < Dabian> OSDN is Microsoft? 19:06 * GyrosGeier offers to save his scrollback 19:07 < strk> They bought: mass-distribution (sourceforge), mass-media (/.), mass-production (sourceforge) [[ I meant mass-distribution (freshmeat), sourceforge was a typo there ]] 19:07 < Lord_Odd_Eye> What are you two on about? I missed the start of this conversation. 19:07 < strk> these are the 3 keys to mass-marketing 19:07 < Dabian> fresmeat 19:07 < Dabian> They also brought freshmeat. 19:07 < Dabian> bought, even. 19:07 < Lord_Odd_Eye> Who bought them? 19:07 < strk> something all of us (me at least) dreamt to leave off their shoulders with the Internet Revolution 19:07 < strk> we are not mass-consumers 19:07 < Dabian> Lord_Odd_Eye: Microsoft. 19:07 < Dabian> Lord_Odd_Eye: Apparently. 19:07 < strk> Dabain, I didn't say that 19:08 < strk> and I don't think they did 19:08 < strk> isn't it on the share market ? isn't it a public company ? 19:08 < Dabian> strk: Whats the connection between OSDN and MSDN? 19:08 < strk> (TODO: research on the topic) 19:08 < strk> Dabian: pure "assonance" 19:08 < Dabian> Whats that? 19:08 * strk thanks GyroGeier for doing so 19:08 < Dabian> M-x dict ? 19:08 < strk> "Assonance" => they are similar 19:09 < Budd> same vowel sounds 19:09 < strk> like GPL and MPL, wasn't it an attempt to tell people they were similar ? 19:09 < Dabian> Whats MPL? Mozilla Pulic License? 19:09 < strk> fortunately we didn't eat the leaf (does it make sense in english as well ? - it's italian for you ain't got us!) 19:09 < strk> yes Dabian 19:10 < strk> ok. no. I'm a man, not a consumer. I like sharing with others. 19:10 < strk> sharing code is just a part of sharing 19:10 < Dabian> Eat the leaf doesn't make sense in english, afaik. 19:10 < Budd> strk: Is that referring to a bay leaf in soup? 19:10 < strk> sharing idea, documentation is a broader thing 19:10 < strk> sharing money is the MOST important one 19:11 < strk> as money is what everybody in the world needs fullfill their needs 19:11 < Dabian> strk: People have a different definition of "enough money". 19:11 < strk> food, house 19:11 < Dabian> Thats why the communists will have to lynch all the capitalists when the revolution comes. 19:12 < strk> desire come next. my desire is sharing development, but seeing people *use* my desire to get money and not share it makes me mad! 19:12 < Dabian> strk: Thats why we have the GPL. 19:13 < Dabian> strk: I understand why this makes you mad. 19:14 < Dabian> I have seen this comming for a long time, ever since MS claimed that GPL was a virus, maybe even before that. *** Smell the rat, eat the leaf *** 19:14 < Budd> And I still want to know what "eat the leaf" derives from. 19:15 < Budd> web sites generally translate it as "I smell a rat" 19:15 < Dabian> Budd: Maybe from the area where they raise coca? 19:15 < Dabian> Smell a rat? 19:16 < Budd> or "to understand someone's hidden intentions" 19:17 < Budd> "smell a rat" = common Englishism for suspecting fraud 19:18 < strk> That's it ! 19:19 < strk> I'm a sourceforge developer (I don't develope the "sourceforge" software, but *use* the "sourceforge" service) 19:19 < strk> I smell the rat but cannot see it! 19:19 < Dabian> Budd: Maybe its "We didn't eat the leaf!" / "We didn't take the bait!" 19:19 < strk> my neighbours are other Ming developers, but someone behind the curtain is taking joke of us all ? 19:20 < strk> since Ming is LGPL this is partially true 19:20 < Budd> I want to start using it in everyday conversation, but I need to understand it better for maximum effect. 19:20 < strk> partially as we can all still use it 19:20 < strk> but the rat is out there 19:20 < strk> selling OSS "solutions" and shering nothing 19:21 < strk> would be nice to have a survey of "donations" taken with sourceforge service 19:21 < strk> note that any "donation" you take as a sourceforge developer splits in two parts: one for sourceforge business (OSDN), one for you 19:22 < strk> multiply for the number of developer (survey needed for this - take not for a TODO) 19:22 < strk> but this might be a very *small* portion of the money big companies take for selling OSS "solutions" 19:23 < Dabian> What hinders you from taking 100% donation? 19:25 < Dabian> Then again .. 50% is much better than what artists get from the record-buisness. 19:25 < Dabian> But then again 19:25 < Budd> Not true in my case, though the total is pretty small. 19:26 < Budd> (homebrew CDs) 19:26 < Dabian> I guess you can consider donation a "tipp" .. 19:32 < Budd> OK: according to an italian newsgroup badly translated through babelfish, "eat the leaf" means to discern someone's true intentions, e.g. "I was fooled at first, but then I ate the leaf". 19:33 < Budd> From now on, instead of saying "get a clue", I will say "eat the leaf, dude!".